This episode of the NLN Nursing EDge Unscripted Surface track is part 2 of 2 featuring guest Kate Jones.
Dedicated to excellence in nursing, the National League for Nursing is the leading organization for nurse faculty and leaders in nursing education. Find past episodes of the NLN Nursing EDge podcast online. Get instant updates by following the NLN on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. For more information, visit NLN.org.
This episode of the NLN Nursing EDge Unscripted Surface track is part 2 of 2 featuring guest Kate Jones.
Dedicated to excellence in nursing, the National League for Nursing is the leading organization for nurse faculty and leaders in nursing education. Find past episodes of the NLN Nursing EDge podcast online. Get instant updates by following the NLN on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. For more information, visit NLN.org.
[MCM] Welcome back. Last episode we talked with Dr. Kate Jones to explore how we define and assign value to faculty contribution. Today we return to revisit faculty value and discuss more about opportunities to expand redefine and articulate faculty value. Thank you for joining us. I go back to what you were saying Kate about when you have you know scholarship and teaching and research or service do they have to be equal and what percentage is assigned to each of those and what does that look like for a...and I want to also make a transition to a little bit to a novice educator you know a kind of mid-career I don't know if there's a word for that and then a really an educator that's in more having a dual role role in leadership and education. What does that look like? It's like a stair step or a ladder? I don't know.[RO] So Michelle I really like the reframe that I heard here I could like hear the reframe going on as you were talking because it made me think about how we often throw around words like junior faculty right and this is a whole other conversation for another time and the connotation and the value that is placed on the words of junior faculty versus early career or junior researcher versus early career researcher um okay I think that opens up a whole other realm of the labels we put the credentials we add the titles that are on things that also can have positive and negative connotations of value.[MCM] Well, when I hear the word junior faculty, I'm like, oh I'm on the JV team. I didn't make varsity. That's what I think.[RO] Right, well.[KJ] Yeah it's a it's a really interesting. There's a lot of interesting language that's used in academia and again you know five and a half years in to academia myself I'm still learning it and it's quite different from what language is used in other settings and so when I started talk about novice to expert you know I had been an expert at what I was doing before and suddenly I was a novice and so as we hired new faculty and in some cases higher faculty who are coming from practice rather than from another academic setting um I there's work that needs to be done to help those individuals make that transition effectively and learn what's valued and you know all of those pieces because nobody wants to feel like a novice for very long.[MCM] I think back to how much it would have really helped listening to you Kate when I was a coming into education as a novice teacher it would have been really helpful if somebody had said to me your job is to teach these two courses really really well like over the next year two to three semesters we want you just to dig in and just do these two things really really well and maybe sit in on this one committee as a member or as a even just maybe auditing right just audit this committee just listen right and learn you don't have to really have any additional responsibilities because you're going to do these two things or these three things really really well that's just really what it helped I I think I got very quickly overwhelmed with the the responsibilities of academia learning them all these different hats we have to wear learning them navigating them doing them was very overwhelming when I was new because in my even though I didn't go right from practice I did take a master's um program in leadership and educational courses I still wasn't taught some of this real nuts and bolts skills of teaching I had to learn that on the on the ground just like we do with our nurses you know.[KJ] I think the interesting thing you just said is "I want you to teach this class really, really well." You know we get assigned classes you know here's your teaching assignments there's very little conversation about how well you should teach the class until the end when you get your evaluations and then it's like oh um maybe you didn't teach it well enough so it would be great if that messaging was on the front end for for faculty whose primary role is teaching we want you to teach not only do the job but do it really really well now if that's being said though that implies that there's time and energy and effort devoted to that really excellent level of teaching and so you know bringing it back to that value question okay I can do that I can teach it really, really well it's going to take me this amount of time and that might mean that this other thing over here doesn't get as much of my attention.[MCM] Well you know I'll never forget ever ever forget when I got my first course evaluation after being a teacher for I say poor my Dean I think she meant well because I really adored her I respected her very much but I she said so your evaluations you essentially like got a C, like you like as a grade, right. Like if you look at like your grade point average, you're like a C teacher and I was like so, not only am I on the JV team but I'm also I got a C and I you know tend to be a bit of I always tease a recovering perfectionist so I'm used to being an A. I want to be an A teacher and I worked hard to like I felt like the work I was putting in was A but it wasn't you know and I needed a lot more support on like you said what does teaching well look like? And I had to figure that out over many semesters going forward that wasn't easy work to figure out it was how to get a lot of feedback that was hard to process and I needed to lean on a lot of mentorship in those early years and it took years. It's not like a semester thing, it's not like 15 weeks. It's years of growing into that role right for me. I might be, yeah, I might need to stay on JV for a while.[RO] You know, I'm thinking up to this point a big focus has been us talking about articulating and capturing the value that the individual or the educator the nurse professional right wherever they may be is bringing to the institution. I I would like us to flip that coin for a second on the other side of that coin is the value that the institution can create for the employee, right, and within the context of academia the school or college of nursing, can create for the faculty member. And I think this is incredibly important because we're facing a time where we have a high attrition out of academia we know we are facing a faculty shortage and we're going to continue to face a worsening faculty shortage. And so Kate I'm curious to hear your thoughts about how academic institutions can increase value that really plays a role in recruiting and retaining high performing faculty that do their jobs well and are committed to doing their jobs well.[KJ] Yeah, ironically, I don't think that there's that much difference between what you have to do for recruiting and retaining faculty than there is for other roles...it's about that connection to the workplace and to the, you know, the mission, vision and values is that something I can go to work every day and feel good about, right. So I think first I would say know me, know what I need know, what I want know, what's important to me as an employee, as an educator. You know, I don't want to be seen just as one of the crowd. I want somebody and hopefully it's the person that I report to or work with closely to know me well as an individual and I don't mean you know personally, we have to go out and be best friends, but I mean know my professional value and what I bring as an individual. I think that's really important. I think providing development opportunities is huge and we talked about that already kind of helping people move from novice to expert or wherever they may be in in their trajectory, you know getting them off the JV and onto the and you know, onto the upper division team. I think one thing we can do is whenever possible have me teaching courses that I'm passionate about. I promise you that that those will be the ones that I'm teaching really, really well. Now, I understand that as an employee, sometimes I have to do something that isn't the thing that I'm most passionate about and if we are having a good working relationship where I feel valued and you are, I see the person who does the assignments as someone who cares about my work experience, then I'm willing to do what's needed to help the bigger picture, right, but I also want to have those opportunities to teach what I'm passionate about and so I think if there's a way, you know, I don't know in the recruiting process people often ask what they're going to be teaching and you know we sometimes say, whatever we need you to teach, you know, we'll try to put you in the courses that you prefer, uh I think that one's that one's an interesting one. I think another thing we can do is help faculty especially teaching faculty but maybe all faculty expand their professional network. We can get really siled in our you know our department within our college, within our university but networks create opportunities and so, you know, and leaders have networks and so the more that you can pull people into networks and have them start creating a network of their own, the richer their professional life is going to be so if you know I'm interviewing a school at a school and I find out that it's there's a dean there who's really good at doing that that would be appealing to me, I would find that something that I would be drawn to. I think meeting one on one is an example of demonstrating how you care about this person's contribution to the organization and again I know as you know a leader myself the time it takes to do that is is significant, but boy I think talk about ROI. You get a pretty big ROI from that time investment . And then the only other one I can think of really is about developing a healthy work environment a culture where teaching and research are equally valued and so calling out when things are said that make one seem less than the other or making a special effort to elevate teaching when it's important and so I think there's you know a lot of things that that can be done. We're all humans and and it's hard sometimes to do all those things on a daily basis, but to me a leader's primary responsibility is creating a healthy work environment. So that's a question I would ask if being interviewed, you know, tell me about the work environment and if nobody says the word healthy then I'm gonna be a little bit worried. [RO] You bring up a lot of really important points and two things that are really resonating for me that I hear in that is making sure that employees are seen and that they have a voice. And especially when we think about a voice that takes my mind to shared governance and how we have many colleagues across the country that are still working at institutions where or they're working at institutions where the institution is still not giving voting rights to faculty who are not tenured correct, who may be on a professional or a clinical track and so I think that is a great example of opportunities to work through shared governance to give voice to. And you also mentioned these one-on-one meetings of being seen, you know, and talking with faculty I hear a lot from you know, Michelle and I do some work across the where we get, we're very privileged and lucky to meet folks from across the country and a resounding theme I often hear from faculty sometimes is that they feel like everyone outside their institution can recognize their contributions and their worth and people inside their institution cannot. And so your words about strategies for helping faculty to be seen and understood and known and recognized and appreciated I think are incredibly important[KJ] And not...not just applied to teaching or to being a faculty member. I mean, those are the important things that all individuals in a workplace really would benefit from and can benefit from so, but while we're focusing on academia. I think as as a faculty member knowing that someone there cares about whether I'm kind of moving through my professional path in a way that is not only benefiting the organization but also is contributing to my personal growth and professional growth that's really important. [MCM] And I'm thinking when those two things can happen that alignment it's pretty like magical. I mean I think you would probably retain that person who feels like their their contribution is really helping them grow and it's also serving the bigger institution because I think it's human nature to want to belong to right our family on a smaller level our communities our organizations of you know where we spend a lot of our time working. We want to belong we want to contribute that's I think human nature for the most part so.[KJ] I agree yeah.[KJ] Well thank you Kate I just want to thank you so much for joining us for this really fantastic conversation and I want to take a little bit of time right now to get to know you a little bit more for fun and we have some rapid fire questions. Are you ready for that? [KJ] Okay.[MCM] All right, all right. Thanks. If you were to write a memoir, what would you title the book?[KJ] Okay, so I am the third of seven children so I think that I would it would be something like stories from the third in line [Laughter] My parents did often like even coming downstairs on Christmas morning, we were in order, although for that one I think we were in reverse order so I was more towards the back of the line, but yeah stories from the third in line.[RO] That's awesome.[MCM] I love that, I love that. What is on the top of your reading list right now for fun?[KJ] the book that I just started my sister just sent it to me it's called Lessons in Chemistry and it's supposed to be a fabulous book. I haven't gotten very far into it yet, but yeah that's what I'm reading for fun right now.[MCM] That's great it's on my list too it's on my nightstand. I've got I have a bit of a pile but it's in there and What is your favorite quote?
[KJ] My favorite quote is Maya Angelou's:people will forget what you did, they'll forget what you're you said, but they'll never forget how you made them feel. And then I also have a motto kind of I have a plaque in my office that says this which is: Today I choose joy.[MCM] If you could have dinner with one person dead or alive who would it be?[KJ] So if you have been a person or who has had a family member with dementia or alzheimer's, any form of dementia, you know that you kind of lose that person before they actually are gone. So my dad died in 2013 but he had dementia for several years before that so if I could have dinner with him I would want to have dinner with his pre-dementia self so that we could continue some of the conversations that we had that kind of got lost as things moved on and then you know I don't want to end on that sad note so I my other dinner would be with Hugh Jackman, just you know, because I'm a theater fan and I've seen him live twice. I think he's pretty amazing and yeah so I'll have dinner with my dad first but then if HughJackman's available I'm always willing to have dinner with him.[MCM] That would be a packed night that would be fantastic. Perfect.[KJ] How about you, who would you have dinner with?[MCM] Oh who did we had...we had a party didn't we Rachel when we asked?[RO] Yeah we had like a dinner party um and I gotta tell you, I think my answer now is totally different than the last time we did this together and asked And I have been really just blown away by the conversations that happened between Brene Brown and Simon Sinek and Adam Grant on their podcast. They all jumped on each other's podcasts and did some just off the cuffs conversations And it just really has transformed my thinking and has been amazing. And so I would love to have dinner with them now so my next wishful dinner party would be the three of them just chit chatting.[MCM] That's awesome.[RO] Michelle. [JK] That would be great, yeah invite us. [RO] Absolutely.[MCM] Yeah mine would definitely be Father Richard Rohr. He is, yeah. He's a Catholic Franciscan Friar. He is fantastic but he's, he thinks differently. He's really just shaking things up and he's just so wise. His wisdom is just profound and he also has been interviewed by Brene Brown several times And she thought, he's been, he's written many books so I just find him very centering and his he just seems like the kindest man on the planet so I would love to have dinner with him. And he has a dog named Opie, which I think is adorable. [KJ] Nice.[MCM] Anyway, well thank you Kate, thank you for joining us. It's been a wonderful conversation it's been great getting to know you and I look forward to the next time that our path can cross.[KJ] Absolutely thanks very much.[RO] Thank you for joining us on this episode of NLN Nursing EDge Unscripted Surface. We hope you join us next time. Until then, remember: whether your water is calm or choppy, stay connected, get vulnerable, and dare to go beneath the surface.